Interview with Ingmar Sioen, december
2008
by ELOY VERDU & Mª JOSE MANCEBO
Translation
in Spanish:
Mr. José Luis López Banos
& Yolanda
Credits: www.duvoboxers.com
1-
Who is Ingmar Sioen?
Some may know me in person,
some may have heard of me, some have never heard my name. I am the son of Johan
Sioen and Mariette Poppe, founders of boxer kennel
“Van Sapho’s Hoeve”, 30 years ago. I have lived between these beautiful dogs
all my live and through my parents I was able to learn this astounding breed in
detail. For the last 10 years or so all decisions concerning breeding are being
taken after deliberation between me and my parents. So I can call myself a
Boxer Breeder in the full sense of the word.
I also handle Boxers in the ring – both my own and
others – and I am training Boxers. Mainly for IPO trials.
Again: both my own and others. At the same time, here in
2-
Since when are you breeding Boxer and why?
I was born in 1977 and have lived between Boxers ever
since. I do not know another life. To me, part of life is breeding Boxers and I
want to emphasize that the help we get from my parents is still very important.
They founded our “sister”-Boxerkennel “De
3-
What is
the meaning/origin of Van Sapho’s Hoeve?
The first boxer my parents did own was called “Sapho”.
“Hoeve” means “farmhouse”.
Sapho was a fawn female without white markings,
closely bred on Witherford Hot Chestnut. For all kinds of reasons she left no
traces in our breeding.
As you can see the name of our spanish
sisterkennel is as close a translation you can get, emphasizing the continuity
in breeding.
4-
What is your opinión about the actual breeding?
It really depends on the country. At this moment
(2008), the situation in
The
5-
What do you think about the blood relationship
in the breeding?
Close breeding is very important. It is necessary to
fix and hold on to characteristics. Both in type in general
as in matters of detail. This fixation needs time,
it is a work of generations. It is even good to go far in this kind of
breeding, but you must be aware of the risks and be prepared to take the
consequences: you might end up with a lot of rubbish. But sometimes you get the
high quality puppies you were looking for, the ones that carry the type you
searched for. And you can be sure the females out of that combination will be
good reproducers. For a breeder those females are fundamental.
To be clear: you can get excellent puppies out of open
combinations too. No doubt. But here luck plays a far greater role. And the
worth in terms of reproducers is a lot more questionable, unless of course one
of the parents is part of a closely bred line.
6-
Is it necessary to do open breeding?
Yes, of course. Breeding close over generations – even
in the best of “blood”-lines –eventually will get you into (big) trouble. For
by doing this you not only fix and reproduce the better points, but also (and
often without knowing it) the negative points. At a certain point – if no
“outcross” has been planned, or is planned too late in the scheme – this can
mean the end of that line. Even very abrupt. You only
have to study the history of the breed to find examples.
And even if the outcross (or more of them) is planned,
you have to search very well. It is not enough to look for a male that has the
characteristics ”your” line needs and is more or less similar with the type you
want to hold on. You have to make sure this male comes from parents (or from a
line) that transmits these characteristics. And even more: he should not show
(or hide) some of the weaker points of your line. And these weaker points are
always there!
That, of course is the theory and as a breeder you try
to follow the principle as good as you can. In reality, nature will tell you if
you played your cards well or not. In breeding deception is waiting around the
next corner. But not always.
An interesting note, maybe: in discussions about
breeding my parents, over the years, have come to stress more and more the
importance of the quality of the Boxer you are line breeding to ( extremely few
animals are worth line breeding to) and, secondly, the necessity to “open” the
gene pool, before too many characteristics are lost for ever.
7-
Are the health tests necessary/important
for you in breeding?
Ai..I was awaiting this
question! To be clear from the start – and everybody knows my position, which
is also the position of my parents: I am firmly opposed to every kind of
obligation in breeding matters. The freedom of the breeder should only be
restricted by his conscience. “Outside” information, especially scientific
information and even more important, information from experienced colleague-breeders,
is always welcome. But as “information” – not in a package of
rules and obligations.
This being said: if a health problem occurs in the
breed, a breeder can choose to ignore it or he can choose to take the steps he
thinks necessary after he has informed himself.
The one who ignores the problem will run into trouble
very soon. He will be “out of business”. Morally and
otherwise. And so will his dogs.
The other one will struggle with the problem and
overcome it sooner or later– depending on the nature of the problem. It is
possible he will suffer big losses ( see for example
the “axonopathy” problem in the
In either case: compulsory testing and consequently
exclusion will not help.
Voluntary testing – if there exist a reliable test! As for example in the case of axonopathy – will certainly help.
For the individual breeder knows best – or should know! – his
dogs and can, after testing, make the appropriate decision.
Voluntary testing – again, if there exist a reliable
test!– is the only sure way, for here the breeder has
no interest at all in manipulating his own results and consequent breeding
decision.
Every imposed and compulsory testing – in dogs or
anywhere for that matter – will inevitably lead to manipulation of results – or
even worse: to the making of rules based on either corrupt data or on
inadequacy of the test or, in the worst case, on a misinterpretation of the
initial problem.
Up to this day, my father is convinced that Boxers can
(of course) show problems in the hip region (although far more often in the
knee-region), but that the entire “HD-institution” has been erected on
extremely poor scientific theory formation, inadequate testing, inadequate
interpretation of test results (we have results of the same x-ray in three
different countries tested officially with three different results) and very
naïve translation of this “results” (which he – and others- qualify as
“self-fulfilling prophecies”) in breedingrules.
On the other hand, a problem we monitor very closely
is the hart condition in the Boxer breed. Especially
Subaortastenosis. For this is a real problem, sometimes a fatal one and
most certainly a hereditary one.
We test our Boxer since about 1990. Far before any
obligatory testing came into existing and far before the nature of the problem
was known. In that period we had used frequently a beautiful Belgian male from
outside our kennel. His children were excellent. But several died very young
and many others rapidly showed signs of fatigue and remained thin. After exhausting
research we were able to narrow down the possible causes to some kind of a hart
problem. We – our vet and my parents - consequently set up a self defined
testing scheme with a gradation of hartmurmors combined with the results of an
electrocardiogram. No Doppler was available at that time.
At that time we were ridiculed both in
The really immoral part of this compulsory testing
debate, is that there exists one simple test (already mentioned by Frau
Stockman) that can give a very good indication if an individual Boxer is fit
enough to breed from. And it does cost nothing. (This of course is a problem
for the vets, faculties, etc..). And the test – officially
-already exists: let a dog run near a bicycle for
8-
What is
your biggest challenge, now, as a breeder?
What it always has been: trying to breed Boxers of
good quality, good type and construction and a true boxer personality.
That is difficult enough.
If I succeed in doing this, other things such as
making a boxer up for a championtitle will follow – in time.
9-
Could you tell us your experience with natural
short tale Boxerbreeding?
It is one of the most exciting – and scientifically
sound – possibilities to keep the original Boxer (short tailed), that was given
us by the research and the work of Dr. Bruce Cattanach, a professional
geneticist and outstanding Boxerbreeder.
As most breeders did look upon the project as a simple
cross between breeds and did not understand the underlying genetics (they
didn’t want to or simply could not), it was almost impossible to have accepted
the natural short tailed boxers.
Clubofficials were not ashamed to declare publicly
they did not even want to look at them.
For the sake of simplicity they forgot for one moment
that every breed is built on a mix of other “breeds”. Even
our beloved Boxer. And this project was not even about a cross but about
a very detailed and supervised (by the English KennelClub) attempt to introduce
a well-defined gene (the one responsible for the shortness of the tail) into a
known and controlled genepool.
Ofcourse, no one would have been interested in this
project if the dog world in general and elected officials specifically had not
accepted that Politics interfered with dog standards in the first place. It was
their moral duty to stop this interference. They did not. As a result the
actual Boxer standard is a Political Standard, no longer a cynological one. It
is all the more cynical that the European legislation itself foresees in a note
that the entire legislation can be officially ratified without the paragraph of
the tail docking ban! Many countries have done so. It was cynological officials
that went further than their own governments! Few people know this. Or should I
say: most dog people do not care?
Anyway eversince I am left with one question, on which
no Boxer men of –woman has give me an answer: If a Boxer with a long tail is so
much better/nicer/more natural -why did no one keep long tailed boxers before
the docking ban?
We were – and are – convinced we should give this
project a chance. So we set up a separate program and made several combinations
starting with a short tailed Norwegian male (originating from the Cattanach
project) that was Spanish owned: Dahlina’s Lexus. A brindle
male with white markings, short tailed, English lines and a true Boxer in every
sense of the word. Lexus proved to be an able and very fertile male. We
kept several of his children and grandchildren. Without anyone knowing these
were naturally short tailed boxers, we entered some of them in expositions,
both all breed and boxer specials, under all breed judges and under boxer
specialists. Most were graded “excellent” and with one male we got “best junior
in breed”, twice and under boxer specialists! This speaks for itself,doesn’t it?
Of course there were things we didn’t like. Just as
with any other Boxer puppy. And no, the Big Champion was not (yet) in these
litters from the seventh generation. But we felt we moved in the right
direction. First we had to widen the gene pool (include all lines present in
our kennel), secondly we had to continue selecting on type and expression ( try
to get rid of some of the specific English traits – remember the project
started with UK-boxers) and then, in a third and final phase, we could select
specifically on the exact tail length. This was really what was breeding about:
the first generations of Boxer breeders must have felt a similar excitement.
Not the one outstanding puppy that would win it all, but the gradual moving
into the direction you foresee.
Righ tat the moment we had some rather spectacular
improvements in our last litters,we received the news
that the FCI once again changed the standard. In all thei rwisdom the Germans
had succeeded introducing a new line: natural short tailed boxers were to be
disqualified!
In anticipation we had delivered the Standard committee
of the FCI, via its (now:former) President, a full and
detailed rapport of the project: the science, the history, the progress, the
difficulties, the possibilities, the future. Documented with
pictures, X-rays, results, names of participating kennels (all of which were
open for inspection, if so desired), etc.
Not one word. Just a dictate: disqualification. This
is what is called Powerpolitics. And there is nothing that can be done about
it. Or rather, there is. First of all, the project continues in
We discussed it all: nor my parents nor we have the
energy (or the money!) to follow up either of the last two options. At this
point we leave it to the “open countries” and have semen of a few of our best
short tailed boxers frozen in. You never know.
And now I am stuck with a second question
:
What was wrong with giving this project a chance?
Even if it would have been placed under supervision of
the boxerclubs?
Isn’t this “ breeding”?
10-Is the
character the same in natural short tailed boxers as in other boxers?
I did not notice any major difference in the behaviour
of the dogs. The only thing that was obvious, was that the first combinations
of natural short tale where done with English bloodlines. And as anyone knows,
these Boxers are a slightly different temperament. Not as hard as the
continental lines. This came through in these first combinations we did, but
only in the first. And still, I talk about details, not of major differences.
To be clear: I’m convinced I could have passed the
German ZTP with all of these natural short tailed boxers (except for the short
tail of course).
11-What is
for you a complete Boxer?
The appearance of an athlete, the behaviour of a
perfect family member, and this very special expression...an expression that
gives you the feeling to have found the companion you can tell your live to.
12- What are
your preferred bloodlines and why?
First of all, I respect all breeders who achieved
establishhing a distinct line of closebred quality Boxers (
the term “bloodline” is bit outdated, for blood has nothing to do with
it). Especially those lines that can be followed on the mother-side
and that keep on reproducing along this side. When speaking of “lines” nearly
always it is understood: the line via the male-side. Female lines are underestimated.
For example, if you look at the breedingprogram my parents did follow, you will
notice that they always tried to hold on to the same type of female. And each
time – for whatever reason – this type tended to slip away,several
different males were used to “re-conquer” the type. (In reality, three different
types, three different females were “used” to slowly mold the type they wanted
– but that would be too long a story).
And for the male influence, one could say three major
influences.
One: theFred/Plato van de Hazenberg component, in
itself referring to one of the oldest belgian lines,
“Van het Dennedaal”.
Two: as in every continental breeding theinfuence of
Xanthos vom Bereler Ries, but maybe more so that of his son, “Bossvom Bereler
Ries”.
And three: the dutch
component firstly via “
And
as a special outsider: “Carlo v. Sankt Barbara”.
13- Please,
could you say the name of your best two boxers?
I would not be a boxer lover if I gave you only two
names. So, even if you push me…I won’t give you two names. Sorry.
14- If you
have a boxer in front of you, what are you looking for first of all?
The expression in the face. A split second after that: the whole boxer.
15- What is
the worse defect in a Boxer?
I have lots of problems to accept a boxer if he is
afraid. Still there is always the question: is this dog afraid from the start
or is there a bad history behind him. The history of a dog is always part of
his personality (the “why” he is what he is, or seems to be); this fact should
always be remembered when looking at a dog.
It is very hard to see the beauty of a boxer if he/she
is afraid.
16- What do
you think about the Dog Beauty Shows?
At this moment I see it as a game: sometimes it is
unbelievable what happens in a show ring.
I respect very much the idea to compare dogs and to
look for the best. When this comparison is done with respect for the breed, I’m
really positive on shows. Unfortunately there are way too many judges that
simply have not enough experience with our wonderful breed.
The Atibox world dog show is very important for our
breed, even when the judging is not always as it should be. The main thing is
that this organisation gives us the chance to compare our own boxers to others,
to see if there are interesting new dogs, to have an overall view on the
quality, on the negative and the positive trends and to share information
between breeders.
17- Do you
think that it is necessary to get the IPO I before to be a Champion?
IPO is a sport, not a behaviour test.
In IPO there are exercises that go really against the
standard of a boxer. Think about retrieving…our boxer is not a retriever. Does
a Boxer champion need the quality to retrieve? No. Nevertheless: without a good
retrieving behaviour you will not pass the obedience part and as a consequence
not the IPO trial.
I train boxers for a living and still I say that this
is a sport and that it has very little to do with breeding.
Of course, we can ask ourselves if a championtitle has
anything to do with breeding of good boxers.
The books are full of “Champions” that have left no
trace in the breed – and not because they had no matings…
Let’s take another example: you sell a good behaving
nice puppy. For whatever reason the new owner does not give that puppy/young
dog the socialisation/basic education it needs. A year later you see the young
dog again. From a nice puppy he grew to be a very beautiful boxer but when you
move to quickly or he hears a loud sudden sound, he shrinks.
You knew the puppy wasn’t like that when you sold it,
and you even can guess what did go wrong. But with this two,
or even with one of these behaviour traits he will never succeed an IPO trial,
maybe not even a BH trial. And still for you, an experienced breeder: this
Boxer is every bone a champion.
He is a champion and at the same time he will never be
one.
And in the actual situation it is highly probable he
will never mate, never have the chance to prove himself.
Sometimes in breeding the genes are more important
then what you actually see, but you can only see a glimpse of the genes if you also
have the knowledge of the history.
18- Do you
think the best boxers are in the Beauty Dog Shows?
Maybe, maybe not. Maybe the best boxer of the moment is somewhere on a
sofa…we can only speak about the dogs that we see, not about all boxers.
19-
What is your
future project?
My future has changed a lot because of important
changes in my life, especially the last year. At this moment I am only sure
about one thing: the fact that as long as I am breeding boxers, I wil do my
best to breed excellent Boxers.
Not sure about the fact if I will ever work again with
one dog to achieve the top in working trials...lets say I don’t say no.
20- What
advises do you give to the young people who begin in Boxerworld?
Never forget what the breeders before you did do, if
you have the chance to listen to them and to learn…then learn.
No matter what is said about one or the other known
breeder, always think what did he/she do for the breed…use this as a measure of
his/her value.
Forget breeding to have champions, breed to breed good
boxers. The rest will follow.
………………………………………………………………….
PS:
As I was trying to answer
these questions, I received the news that Señor Manolo Izquierdo passed away.
I, together with my
girlfriend Vicky and with my parents, want to express my condolences to his
wife, his family and his friends.
We had the privilege to
speak with him on several occasions and to be invited in his home.
And I mean: privilege.
This is the time all the
Good and Big Words will be used. And they should be spoken. All
of them. For he really was one of those men that –
later – will be recalled as Monuments in the history of the Boxer.
From outside Spain it is
easier to see: he was the man who made it possible for the Spanish breeders to
take their Boxers to a level of quality that now is recognised all over the world.
Señor Manolo Izquierdo was a great man.
.........................................................................
"We want to show our gratitude to Mr. José Luis
López Baños for without his help this interview would not have been possible.
Of course, I would like to thank to Mr. Ingmar Sioen
and his family, all their time and effort that they have done to give
us all the answers.”
ELOY VERDU & Mª JOSE MANCEBO
info@duvoboxers.com
España